Listen or watch The Deep End w/Taylor Welch, as Stephen De Silva talks about “Dismantling the Spirit of Mammon”.
Time Chapters:
- 00:00 Trailer
- 00:52 Start
- 03:56 Embraced Poverty
- 18:12 Poverty Mindset Explained
- 33:52 Three Circles of Poverty
- 44:25 Warfare & Wealth
- 50:20 Tension Meets Faith
- 01:17:31 Concept of Toil
- 01:27:56 Keep my Sabbath?
- 01:30:13 Value of Rest
- 01:37:19 Final Reflections
Bulk Transcription: (Auto generated)
I wake up in the night and I hear this word evil one over and over. The word itself is evil. But the root is toil. God never punished people by giving them wealth. He didn’t say, “Solomon, you bad boy. Here’s a bunch of money. You’re the richest man in the world now. What do you think of that?” But money is a spiritual power. Whatever you believe, it will make it bigger. Is Satan selective in who he wants to see have money versus who he wants to remain in poverty? You can find where you’re going to struggle with lack based on where your grandparents struggle with lack. The Holy Spirit says to me, Steve, your expectation was that you were going to face lack. You expected the failure. I’m thinking, God, tell me I can sell my business. Tell me I can quit my job and just do one or the other. Something I feel trapped by blessing and it’s killing me. And his answers, everyone wants to get to the high places, but if you want to go high, you first have to go deep. What’s up? Welcome to the deep end. How are you, sir? You said you prepared the intro, man. I did prepare it. Wow. was really welcome. Guys, for the record, Jake told me my intros are amateur, so I’ve got to grow up. That was powerful. I’m just saying I I felt that. He doesn’t like the welcome back. He thinks that that’s like what you do when you’re starting a YouTube channel. True. But when you have a YouTube channel, you don’t say welcome back. Yeah. Apparently not. You just say welcome to Exactly. Exactly. Psychology. Guys, we have an amazing guest for you today. This is Steven De Silva. Um, I’ll give you just a background real quick. I’m going to make this all up, so I hope this sticks. Not really. Steven opened a boutique accounting practice serving nonprofits and sold it. 12 years after that, he went on staff as a CFO at Bethel in 1996 until 2017. And he is uh running a ministry now with financial freedom and uh how would you describe what you do right now in your life? Financial, it’s a financial healing ministry and an education agency. That’s what I want to build. Amazing. Cool. Guys, I very rarely pull a book up and tell you to buy it. When I do, you’re grateful that you bought it. This book is incredible. Um I think I read this four years ago, okay? So, a long time ago. I was telling everyone this morning, I have 81 highlights from this. I’ll probably reread it again after our conversation. Um but the material in this is first of all from the Bible so you can trust it. And uh second of all, it teaches you um how to think through trust and self-reliance and money through a lens of how God views these things. And so we’re going to have a really good time today. Thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. It’s as an accountant, it’s great to be anywhere. As a recovering accountant, a recovering accountant. I’m getting old. Wow. I want to I want to start with a quote from the book and then just kind of have you talk about it and then we’ll just kind of go into stories and then Jake will want to know all of the emotional stories that you can tell us. Okay. For sure. Yeah. Okay. The nitty-gritty. If if we can cry on air, then he’s happy. Yeah. That’s what he wants. But here’s the quote. You said, “The word poverty in scripture always has a possessive pronoun attached to it. Poverty is theirs in Proverbs 10:15, yours in Proverbs 24:34, and his in Proverbs 3:17. It seems strange that people would cling to ways of living that are self-inflicting, but that is the power of believing a lie. When I read this, I realized that poverty was not a state. It seemed to be a an identity, something that had gotten a hold of me. Um, can you expound on that and how you see that showing up in people’s lives? Wow. Well, that’s a whopping question. Yeah, man. Uh, yeah. So, poverty is possessive. In other words, we we hold on to it because it it it it gives us a framework that we’re familiar with. And familiarity, we might call that a familiar spirit can be really dangerous because if you grow familiar with abuse, guess what? That’s what you’ll go back to because it’s kind of familiar. I feel safer there than without it. Or if you you know the thing of poverty, one of its fingerprints is you hide. Uh and and hiding has advantages like excuses. And so uh if you you know poverty if if you have a poverty mindset or this issue of poverty uh and we’re kind of focusing on one element. Poverty is actually three parts but we’ll just focus on the mindset part. the uh the the poverty mindset has benefits like I get to excuse myself for things. I get to blame the rich guy. I get to blame my employer. I get to blame my employee. I get to blame my wife or my husband or whatever your space is. You know, you so so that’s the sticky element because it becomes familiar and we want stability. It’s one of the primary things we need in human engineering is protection. And um this protection we will we will fight to hold it even if it’s a a a dirty uh or a damaged virtue. You know what I’m saying? We we’ll hold on to it because of that need for security and familiarity. So when uh so when I teach around money, I I have a a couple of main pillars that I think are just true that I we can build and talk around. And one of them is that money is a spiritual power. That means that it will make whatever you be believe it will make it bigger. Mhm. And if you believe good things, money will make it bigger. Like if you think it’s and believe in generosity, if you’re a generous person and you have no money, you will still be generous. And then when money is added, that will just get bigger cuz money is a power, a spiritual power. And so that’s where, you know, philanthropy comes from is it it flows out of a truth that is actually eternal. It has character. It has truth. I like to call it capital T truth versus little T truth. So it so generosity is a is a profound real value and when money gets on someone who has that they just become bigger and they give more and it’s a beautiful thing right so when um when that kind of thing comes out uh and people see it they all applaud nobody’s you know scandalized by love you know and so but in the same right in the same theme then if money is a spiritual power and you believe you are poor or weak or worthless or you have any of those impoverished fingerprints, those those identity fingerprints uh that are inside and and we are all a mixture of some version of good and bad truths, you know, uh then money added will make those bigger too. And when you know if in coming drawing on my own life which I know the best in the deepest is I believed I somehow I picked up this idea and I can tell you where it began but this is what I do in my ministry is money as it began to come into my life began to exaggerate some things I was really pleased with and happy about and people rewarded me for other things not so much. Ooh, you know, I I need to hide those things. I can’t let those things get out of out of secret. They, you know, when they get out, it’s usually um greed or I look selfish. I am selfish or I I become ambitious. Selfish ambition. And ambition itself is not is not bad. I think it’s biblical. But selfish ambition is a different thing. It’s it’s focused around my I want it and I will take it from you to get it and so yeah so um poverty is sticky going back to the point or the question because of the familiarity and if we are holding on something for the sake of stability and security and familiarity if we’re holding on to something that is exaggerating badly Then then uh we have a choice to make. That’s a decision point. Am I going to surrender that for a higher ideal or am I going to keep it because it gives me something back. It gives me security. It gives me familiarity. It gives me I I get it gives me excuses and whatnot. So when I when I teach you know so this is the one of my areas is helping people identify first of all the belief system that is wrong. uh and and you have to in order to identify something wrong, you have to have a model or a measure of something right. And uh thanks to God, we have that model. That would be Jesus, the actual perfect expression of God uh on the planet. He He’s literally our model that we’re trying to image. So when people look for the distinction of what’s good and what’s bad, what’s right and what’s wrong, and this is an ancient human problem. How do we know what’s right and wrong? Oh, there it is. It’s it looks like Jesus Christ. So as we study that, we may find that, oh, I if I’m really honest, I’m believing something that isn’t like Jesus. It’s like me, and it’s kind of ugly. It’s kind of producing thorns. it’s producing pinches in my life. What am I going to do about that? And so that would be one of my roles is to help people identify that in the area of money. I don’t get off into other space. That’s not my space. But in the area of money, understand that. And then with that understanding, what are you going to do? Well, you I recommend we supplant it. We don’t deny it or reject it or, you know, we can repent over it. we can be, you know, I can acknowledge it, but you don’t cast out those things. You have to supplant them with something more true. And and so the supplanting idea is a is a part of what I do. Getting truth in and lies out. And I say I do actually I believe I cooperate with the Holy Spirit to do that because I don’t have the capacity. But but Jesus does. The Holy Spirit does. And so so when I teach uh this theme would be financial soo. I teach in three themes but this theme financial sozo is um the exchange of lies for biblical truth. And that exchange when I do it, a real powerful symbol that your audience can kind of check out is go get a a one of those big paper clips, just the normal metal paper clip. And if you look at a paperclip, I I’ll hand these out in my courses, in my events, everyone will get a paper clip and um I’ll tell them that this is like poverty. This the paperclip is circular. You know, they they’re looped. It’s a loop and and and poverty will draw you back like that loop if you intellectually think okay I’m gonna leave poverty and I’ve done this numerous times it’s in my book it you know the opening salvo there I talk about this dream I had where I uh where I was sailing in a ship and I kept going around and around this island of poverty and that’s that’s because we can intellectually want to leave and change and recognize this is bad. This this territory, this concept is bad. So, I need to leave it. We can intellectually get there, but to leave it takes a heart issue because it’s a it’s a different organ operating or a different section of us functioning. It’s our it’s our heart, not our head. And so, we tend to, like a paperclip, circle back until we get our heart straightened out. and our heart straightened out. Um is like when you do that, it’s like taking the paperclip and unwrapping it. So now in my class, if you can picture these these students there, everyone there, they all have a paper clip and I as we pray together and talk about these ideas, we physically t tactically unwrap it, you know, and it’s hard for, you know, their hands, you know, hurts their fingers, you know, it’s just uh, you know, and they they pull it out and I tell them, make it completely straight. You are breaking the cycle of poverty. In other words, you’re acknowledging this is more than intellect. This is a heart shift and I am changing my heart around this. And then I tell him to look at that wire, that paperclip wire now, and make it as straight as possible. And I and I and I and I just let him struggle there because you know you can’t do it. When you straighten a paperclip, it has these little wobbles in it, these little bends. And I said, “No, keep get those out. You got to get those And that’s I’m just being honorary brother there, you know. I just know you got to get those out, you know, and you don’t. But um what happens is I when they’re all done with this exercise, I tell them to look at their wire and I and I say those are called bents. Bents. B N T S bents. Those are bents or habits in your life that were made by an old way of thinking. Those are habits that you will still carry out of this room. So, you’re going to have to address those with this exercise every time a loop emerges or tries to steer you back, so to speak. And and uh so people get traction around this concept. Um and then I tell them, now let’s break the wire. And so they so this is funny watching people um they will take this wire and they’ll they’ll kind of bend it around their fingers and they’ll start how do I break it and uh so uh they’ll you know pinch it and then just start working one point on that wire right back and forth and back and forth and and pretty soon you know half the room will snap you know and they’re like yay and the other half the room is like stressed out. They’re like, “Oh my gosh.” And so they’re really working their hands. They’re sweating. The the wires wiggling in their hand. They can’t get it to bend. And then half of them will break. And they’re like celebrating. Yay. And then, you know, um the rest are just freaked out. They’re like, “There’s a curse on my life. You know, I can’t I can’t break this poverty.” And I mean, it really sets up some really powerful teaching moments. And um and I reassure him, hey, I will bite that wire in half if I have to. you’re not leaving the room with that wire intact. You know, we we’ll get it and I’ll go over and I’ll help and usually there’s like five or six left and I’ll show them how to hold the wire. This is such great training for people because we need to be precise on the subject and change our thinking. And when they get going, you’ll feel that wire start to get soft. It’s And I want them to hold it when that happens. I want them to feel that in their fingertips. And the wire gets soft and then click. Just breaks like that. I tell them, take half of that wire. Now I’m back to the room. And throw half of it in a garbage. And as you do, make the declaration, I forsake the spirit of poverty in Jesus’ name. And the other half, keep that like a trophy, like the, you know, like a a victory trophy that you will put on a shelf, like a memorial stone. The Bible calls them Ebenezers, right? Set it somewhere and remind yourself, oh yeah, that’s the death bones of a pattern. And uh that I used to have, you know, uh I love the Bible, that little phrase, and it came to pass. So there’s our came to pass the little bone of a of a poverty mindset. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s cool. So there you go. I have questions on that illustration. Please. Okay. Let’s go. Let’s go. You said there’s bends in the wire. Bents. Bents. Yes. So we get it that there’s a loop. I think a lot of us can probably see the spirit of poverty and it just it’s paper clip. Yeah. It’s one generation to another. They’re like I’m the next person. But then you said there’s bents in it. What are some of those bents that stand out to you when you look at those illustrations? What are what are some of those bents that people are like they’re like, “Dude, I get it. I want this to end.” Yeah. But I have this stupid bias in the way and I don’t I don’t know what it is. What are some of those bents that come up when you hear that for people that need to get down? Great question. So um there there’s so many um nested responses that those all of our ideas that operate in our heart that’s what Jesus calls our treasury. So these all of these things even the junky ones like poverty is sitting in our heart and out of it we behave. And one that comes to mind and I have a ton of them but I’ll give you one. I this is a real one. This is after my personal experience of breaking the wire first time and I am walking around thinking, “Oh, thank God poverty is broken in my life cuz we have a cycle. My family represents a generational pattern. We were farmers, ranchers. So there was a pattern of this across generations and so I wanted to break it for my children’s sake. So I I’m carrying a sense of drama that this I have to win this fight. And so after the moment uh now I imagine me um on a Monday I’m driving my car and I go into a certain coffee shop. I have a meeting with someone and this meeting is you know in 15 minutes but I’m I’m 17 minutes away right? You know those moments when you realize, “Oh my gosh, I wanted to be there before, but I’m not going to make it.” So, I’m totally stressed out. And I’m driving across town and I get into this parking lot and I am thinking, I know what’s going to happen. I’m going to have to park way over there and you know, I’m from California and you don’t we don’t do that, right? We got to park right in front. You don’t walk across the parking lot, right? So, I as ridiculous as that sounds, I’m like, “This is stressing me out cuz that’s going to add another minute. So, all this is going on in my head, right? And I and I pull in the parking lot and I’m literally stressed out over this silly thing. And right in front of this coffee shop, the backup lights come on on this car as I come in. Oh my gosh, I am a prosperous soul. I am a prosperous soul. Look at that. this is. And so I’m just sitting in the car and I am just I’m thanking God for it. I’m like, “Oh, thank you, Jesus. Not only do I feel the re relief that I can get into this meeting, but I feel like God’s provision. Look at this.” And the car backs right out and I pull right in and I go have my meeting and I just I was just glowing, man. I was like, “God is with this is working.” And I have my meeting and I come back out. I get in my car. I’m driving back to my office and I am just thanking Jesus. I’m like, Lord, that is amazing. This is the difference between poverty and freedom. And the Holy Spirit says to me is clear. I mean, I can it was like a tap on the shoulder. He said, “Steve, you did good. Thank you. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Holy Spirit. And he said, “What about that moment right before the car backed up?” Your expectation was that you were going to face lack. You were going to be late. You were not. You expected the failure. You had an expectation. I did, didn’t I? And and he said you your the poverty training in you is years old years old in that point probably 30 years of thinking it was a bent just I knew it was not going to work. There was going to be lack and so a bent are those preuppositions that just lay in our lives. To your question, bents have sounds we can hear ourselves. They sound like, they look like, and they feel like. So, there’s like fingerprints that you can start tracking. I have this little paper. It’s called a sound journal. It’s really corny. I just made it up as a handout. And the sound journal is simply the top half of the page is positive sounds that I’m making or I’m hearing in my home or in my office. When people are saying encouraging things, that’s a positive. And is it rated from zero to one? I think it’s a seven or a two. You know, it’s really really kind of cowboy. But but there’s some categories across it and there’s the positive. There’s also the bottom half of the page is all the negatives in the same opposite categories. and and it’s designed to just make marks. It’s designed to sit on a desk or on a on a bulletin board and and you just make marks every time somebody says something. And if it comes out, you know, fearful, oh, that’s under the fear category. And that was probably a rated four minus four. You with me? And then somebody else will say something maybe that’s really encouraging. Oh, wow. That’s that’s a hope category. I’m going to give that one a seven. You know, and when you’re done by the end of the day or the week or whatever, you have all these little marks, these little hash marks, and you can see where the weight of things, where the habit of your sound is. So that’s a bent. So, so bents or habits or biases have clues. I like to call them fingerprints. They little things leak out like how we speak or how we think. So you know self talk is a great place and you can run a sound journal on your own self talk and um a way to find your negative self talk is a um negativity fast which is brutal dude like impossible they’re impossible. Yeah. Yeah. I hate them there. I just broke it. Have you have you done this? Yeah we have tried to do it. Remember when we tried it was it uh November or something? We tried doing it for like 24 hours. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone should try to do explain to them what a negativity fast is and we’ll give them a challenge to do 24 hours. Okay. 24 hours. Yeah. So 24 hours you are not to say or think if you can manage it. Negative negative things. And I’m not being in like positive confession. I’m just saying like I feel ugly. Oh oops. I just broke my fast. That’s not going to work. Broke. Failed. Start over. Yeah. Can’t even say how I feel. Won’t can’t. Yeah. Isn’t that’s dumb. Fail. Dumb. Yeah. Yeah. You’ve got to find I mean it may be dumb, but you got to find a way of going, okay, we could do that better. So that would be that would not break the So you don’t have to like deny life, but you have to change your expression. It is ridiculously hard. Dumb. Oops. Yeah. There’s also a loop cuz when you fail and then you talk about how you failed, you failed it again. So you just forget the former things and start over. Yeah. The hack for that is just do it by yourself. But if you have accountability Yeah. No, no wives. That’s hectic. So yeah, we did it. We did it as a staff. We did it with our wives and there was probably in those days seven of us with our wives. There’s 14 15 of us doing it. Oh, it was hilarious. Yeah, it was hilarious. real quick on on Benz and I don’t know if you’ve studied this or not but there’s a psychological science for Benz and so you have inhabits and in re reactionary tendencies you have a trigger Mhm. This is something that happens to you. You have an appraisal. This is your brain going what does this mean? What is this? Yeah. You have arousal which is basically the emotional response to it emotion. And then you have the action. A loop is when the prefrontal cortex reverses the second and the third. Oh, fun. So you have a trigger arousal first before you’ve had a chance to Wow. responding. This looks just like last time. So the prefrontal the brain’s trying to preserve energy. So it’s like you don’t have to think about the meaning here. Just respond. Yeah. So poverty is a trained thing and we remember when we were young and we were kids. I got into some hot water recently because of a short that you published. What about what was the short? It was yesterday about um how many times did Jesus talk about his past? Oh. And people have this need to talk and they have this need and that there there are therapeutic environments that’s important. But when someone is so I uh sorry Isaiah 40 43:18 it says basically forget what happened forget So there’s times and I’m sure you’ve done this where you’re like you have to actually ask God to give you new memories cuz you’re looping. Yeah. Your old memories are causing you to to respond before you’ve thought through it. Mhm. And one of God’s favorite things to do with me is what he did with you, which he gives you a new memory to reprint the old pre the old loop with a new loop. Mhm. And so that bend is partially like people can do it through consistency, but I think everyone could also ask God, could you give me some new experiences to help me straighten out these beliefs because my old beliefs are just looping. I love it. You know, I love it. you know, your your um your four phases from event through response. I have a theory that is not based in science, but I have a theory. There’s a fifth um I think of them like rings. Like there like if you drop a pebble, that’s the event. somebody um you know slaps you or you you realize something’s happened that you know there’s the event and then you and it migrates out from there all the way to a a behavior. Mhm. I think there’s one more ring that is a that is a that is set up from these habits and rhythm and routine that opens doors, spiritual doors. And I illustrate this and I’ll send it to you. It’s uh I took an emotion wheel and what I what I don’t like about emotion wheels, you know, I talk what I’m talking about where it’ll talk about the emotions of sadness and happiness and all those things. I don’t like it when they put joy in there because I think joy is a fruit. I think joy is not an emotion. So, I like to replace joy with happiness. But, but you have sad and happy and scared and angry. You have these core emotions and and I and I wanted my own. So, I I made one. I’ll email it to you. And on the outside, I have these doors, a a a final ring. If you’re on the positive side uh like happy, if the emotion and then your interpretation and behavior is let’s say you are generous, we talked about that earlier. Let’s say you’re generous. You can open a door that is um that is joy that is I think kingdom. You can access the kingdom. I think you begin to resonate with the the heaven on earth modeling that Jesus talks and teaches and demonstrated. And so it’s like, okay, okay, so that’s, you know, maybe maybe that’s the fullness of life that we think and dream about. That’s a prosperous soul is you begin to cooperate with the engineering of heaven. That’s a positive doorway you can access. But we also have the negative doorways and those are um occult and sexual sins and anger uh and uh fear. You know, you can open those doors. And when you open those negative doors, uh that’s where some of my wife’s ministry and and elements of mine and other ministries, deliverance, Christian deliverance ministries move into that area to help people close those doors again. So I I it’s you know this is a theory and we’re just kind of riffing here but I think we need to be aware these bents these habits set us up as they become lifestyles. They open doors that can expose us to things that are beyond us. and the the synergy that sets up out there um is powerful both positive side and negative side is powerful stuff and and I want to live in the synergy of heaven. I want to live in that. And I think we can. I think Paul teaches that when he talks about um oh the the scripture is going to drop out of my brain here, but it’s um that we would be known as servants of Christ and stewards of God’s secrets. Now, that’s that’s heavy. Now, servants of Christ is like a two-sided coin. And I think most Christians and any anyone who is spiritually uh minded, right? Spiritual, anyone is spiritual, we we like or appreciate the value of serving Christ because Christ was perfect. I mean, he never he was he was love incarnate. He was incredible. And so servant of Christ is like the side of the coin that the church looks at and talks about. But the other side is stewards of God’s secrets. It literally means to handle, manage, to touch the mysteries that are in God’s brain that he shares with us. I mean, how does it get any better than that? I totally want to live in that synergy, you know? So I think that the things that we’re talking about, we started with poverty, which is like the tip of the iceberg because there’s there’s a structure that poverty is part of that um all of these things mechanically boil down into these issues. We got to replace the the point of replacing lies with truth. That’s supplanting that. Why? The big question, why? Oh my goodness. Well, the context of someone greater than ourselves. That’s why. And to actually engage with that Yeah. person and and and uh and find out what it’s like to walk like Adam, walk with God in the garden, you know, find out what that’s like. I think we can. Before we move on to the next session, you said poverty was uh there were three parts. Financial poverty was one. What are the other two? Um so structurally, I see it like a vin diagram, the three circles. Mhm. And you know those circles in a VIN overlap like Olympic rings, right? So poverty is a vin diagram of three parts, three circles. And that and so there’s another vin around mammon in my opinion. And then there’s um those two vin diagrams are puppets to a puppet master. So I’ll I’ll describe what you asked. the poverty structure, the reason it’s so resilient, you know, the United States has been in a war on poverty since Lyndon Johnson. And I see you’ve got some of his books there on your shelf. Not his books about Linda Johnson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a crazy person. Crazy person. Truly. But um we’ve been in a war on poverty since I think 1964. And I don’t know if I think we’ve made headway, but why is it so resilient in the most powerful nation in the world economically? And the reason and in fact it goes on generationally and it goes on nationally, internationally, culturally across all time. Why? It’s because poverty is three circles. Poverty and is a mindset. So one circle mindset. The second circle will label powers and the third circle will label systems. So the top one and I don’t care that it’s the top. I’m just trying to keep my head straight here. If I had a whiteboard, I’d be drawing it. That top circle mindsets are what we’re talking about with familiarity and stickiness and patterns and thinkings and fingerprints and and um changing and exchanging supplanting lies for truth. What’s the truth? The Bible, scripture, what Jesus said, the mind of Christ, all those things is our toolkit for breaking this mindset of poverty. And that first circle relates to this second circle which I called powers. That’s powers is coming from Ephesians 6 where Paul is saying we battle not with flesh and blood with powers. principalities. And he goes through a little a short list of kind of the structures of heaven of the demonic systems. And I and I’m no expert in that. I don’t want to know all that stuff. Uh but powers means broadcast like um the enemy’s uh declaration over a region or a city or a particular store or a home or a family. So it’s very regional. So demonics, demonic powers can be like a a message like a radio and there’s, you know, there’s a country western station and there’s a rap station and there’s, you know, all these different stations on a radio, the old school radio. You could turn the tuner and hear the different messages and then listen to one. That’s happening when a mindset that first circle overlaps with the message of the enemy. And that overlap is called a synergy. If you picture two Olympic rings coming together, that overlap is a synergy. That’s where a mindset and a declaration of the enemy or a strategy or plan of the enemy begin to agree. And that’s where we begin to um set into patterns in a lifestyle where we start thinking and agreeing with demonic ideas. The third circle is our systems, poverty systems. And we can see poverty systems in the micro, in our internal thinking, uh the way we operate with our money, uh just the decisions we make in the store, uh you know, retail therapy or almost reflex therapy, uh reflex spending or revenge spending, all the weird things that we do kind of micro that can that scope can go all the way out to national scale, even you know, governmental levels where we have systems that are impoverishing. Does that make sense? So, so if the circles don’t touch a system can still be a poverty system without the demonic synergy happening. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like I I have, you know, I’ll be working with a a business person and I’m sure you’ve seen this a hundred times where probably thousand times where you see, you know, they’re just underpricing. They just their price structure is wrong. So they have built their own poverty system. Now there’s no demonic engine behind it. They’re just foolishly or ignorantly building something that is, you know, costs them more to build or buy than it does to to sell it. And so they get these structures. So the circles don’t have to touch, but when they do, you have synergy. And if all three circles, if you think of this vin diagram and push them all together, a little space appears in the middle, that’s called a convergence. And in poverty, that would be a poverty trap. And that’s where the demonic messaging, the mindsets of those trapped in that, and the systems that they’re part of all converge. And they’re they’re literally in a poverty prison. And we see nations in this. We see individuals, families, and so, you know, just moving away from that for a moment, that’s got to be the body of Christ’s target that we are the welfare system of the planet, not the government. We’ve kind of given that away, which I think is tragic. I think we individually carry this mandate but we need to get it back instead of delegating it to an agency because the agency local, national, it doesn’t matter. Agencies work in systems not in the demonic piece. And so the resiliency of poverty is because of these synergies and because of the traps in the center where they will concentrate and trap inner cities or whatever’s going on there. So when you’re breaking these synergies, these structures, you need to work where you need to exploit the enemy’s weakness and where is it weakness? where where is it weakest in the individual we’re working with? So if a if a person is an employee, they don’t have a lot of power or authority in a system because they’re working in it. But if we’re a business builder, we have a bunch of power and we need to get our head straight and build the opposite of a poverty system. And individually, we can all have authority in the mindset. So, I tend to push most of my people begin in the top circle of mindsets. And that’s my courses and whatnot that I have and really that book that you’re uh that you’re describing focused on mindsets. Mhm. But the other structures um we have to go after. Just to tie in both this poverty on one side, mammon on the other, mammon for people who don’t know that word, it’s greed, the worship of money. Yeah, the lust of money. And then inside of poverty, you have mindsets, uh, powers and systems. These are all for the business audience. These are fractal. So, they’re going to run down, they’re going to trickle down, and they’re going to trickle up. Um, I like that. And that’s that’s what you’re talking about with financially kind of the poverty trap is kind of in the middle of poverty trap is the convergence of all three circles. That’s that’s an amazing model. Um have you have do you have this published somewhere? Mhm. Okay, great. I talk about it in my prosperous soul foundations class which is the advancement from that. We’ll buy that and we go go through that. One thing that I would recommend before we turn it over to to Jake. Uh this is just what I was thinking as you were going through this. The mindset is epigenetic as well. So how people grow up is an indication of how they’re going to struggle. So, it’s a good idea and I’m sure you do this to try to go through and find you can find where you’re going to struggle with lack based on where your grandparents struggle with lack and where your parent This is why in America we have to deal with this like we have to talk about it because certain people grew up under oppressive systems. Yeah. And so a system will will contort your mindset over time. Yeah. And so we have a lot of discussion today around right now, but we do have to understand where people came from. And it’d be a good idea to ask the Lord what what mindset has been placed in me uh epigenetically, demonically from 300 years, 200 years ago. Beautiful idea. And then when you get clarity, you can ask him to help you fix it. Um I love that model. So on the subject of spiritual warfare for a second, I want to open this up to both of you guys. Um, one of the things when you guys were talking about the spirit of poverty and just like what that does to people and how it programs people, um, it made me think of the question, is Satan selective in who he wants to see have money? We know that sometimes Satan does give money to people and there’s probably a reason why. Um, so the question is, is Satan selective in who he wants to see have money versus who he wants to remain in poverty? And if he is selective, how does he do it? Well, I think I think of a horse and we are riding. So, the Christian or the person we’re talking about is riding that horse and the devil wants us off the horse, right? So, it’s an image of power and purpose and motion is this concept in my head. And the question you’re posing is, does the devil care if we fall off the right side or the left side? And I don’t think he cares. Now I think if I think he is, he can’t create anything, but he can exploit the dickens out of stuff. And so if we have, see, money is a spiritual power. It will exaggerate whatever’s on going on inside. If we have a lot or a little, you know, as a left side or right side of the horse, I don’t personally I don’t think the devil cares. I think he just wants us off the horse. He wants us powerless on the ground defeated. And so I think if you know if the devil allows or permits I don’t know I’ve I’ve not thought about that idea. That’s a new concept that the devil would give people money. I that that one I’d have to noodle but I’m just going to accept accept it for a moment because it’s not crazy. Um, if the devil gave people money, uh, it’s only and always in my my assessment to exploit a lie that is growing in that person’s heart and that guy’s going to tip right off that that horse. So, does that Mhm. answer? Yep, that makes sense. All right, I’ll answer that question then we’ll move on. Um, how do you feel? Good. I feel good. Scale of 1 to 10. Eight. How do we get it to a 10, bro? By finishing the episode. What? I’m interested. It’s gonna get to a 10 because I’m interested. And then I’m really curious to see where you’re going to take it. And I’m just having fun. I’m having fun. I’m going to take you to the Hornets nest. Sweet. That’s fun. Okay. Um Yeah. Yeah. There’s selectivity. Do I you just asked a yes or no question and then I asked the follow-up question is what would he base it off of? Everyone has so the does the kingdom of darkness have unlimited resources? No. Um are they trying to do the best that they can? Yes. Then that would mean that they have to be selective because they would they understand management theory. They’re not going to just pro rata. I mean, to an extent, yeah, that the enemy wants everybody to be poverty, but some people are dangerous. And I think that the that Christians a lot of times think that the enemy is trying to like steal their gift. Most of the time, he’s trying to corrupt their gift. Why would he steal something when he can just use it? This is what happened with me. This is my story. Gifted with the ability to create increase, he didn’t take that away. and neither did God. But the enemy was able to corrupt it through mammon. And stewardship only became about hourly rates and cost benefit anal that never once did I ask God am I supposed to go do this. I just was like this will make good money so I’ll do it. So I think some people absolutely they’re they’re easier to corrupt because they have such a gift. It’s the It’s the person who’s born with an amazing uh voice genetically, historically, and they start leading worship at a church and then all of a sudden they’re recognized and promoted through fame and then they fall away. I mean, that’s that’s the Babylonian blueprint like or or draw other people away that’s even worse than them. Like so all of this clones from Babylon. This is like this is old old old old old. Like in in Babylonian history, what did they do? They would take the Hebrew slaves. They would brainwash them and they would try to send them back to brainwash everyone else. That’s what they’re doing. The same playbook today in America. So this person was a Christian. Now they’re not. And all their crew they grew up with that was a Christian is influenced by the person who fell away because they were corrupted in their gifts. Whether it’s money, fame, relationships, you name it. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great answer. I like that. Love that. Good job. That’s great. Yeah. Where do you see us going from here? Um, I want to hit one question, then I want to take us into the history because you have a fascinating viewpoint on prosperity is not just an idea. It’s not just a choose it if you want it or don’t if you don’t. It’s it in some regards it was like you will be prosperous like more commandment level. But before we get there, um I have a quick question in the middle around tension. Um there’s a really cool study on this. When when a society gets healthier, when a society gets wealthier, as a society evolves and advances, they become more anxious. It works the way that you would expect it not to work. Um I think it’s it’s called um prevalence induced concept change. It’s a big study on it where basically our brains are trying to keep us alive. So they’re looking for a bear or if I could starve to death, this is the problem. But as soon as there’s no longer a threat with the bear, the brain still tries to find problems and it just widens the scope. So we will start pulling in milder problems. Mhm. So the idea is that as a as a generation like in America, we have um more wealth than we’ve ever had. We have more um connectivity than we’ve ever had and we’re more depressed than we’ve ever had. We’re more anxious than we’ve ever this all of it’s getting worse. Mhm. You said something in the book. You said um about tension. I’m going to find it and read it for you. Um true faith in God lies in tension. Whether we are learning to die in order to live or scattering to increase all the more trusting him requires us to live confidently between the problem and the promise to live within a mystery. So my question is how do you deal with the delta between I know that this is what God said but this is not what I’m seeing and how do you help people navigate that? Uh wow well that is a that is a great question that opens up a whole huge different conversation but I I use a pull system p u l pull and uh it’s based around uh an organization of identity purpose vision strategies and tactics and my theory is that we are humans are engineered like ropes uh we are designed to pull pull not push and um if a simple picture is if God is leading then we are being pulled by him and we are following. So if you just get the following image or picture a rope, if you push a rope, it bends. And when you the bend is what I call pinches in our lives and those are pain points. And so your question around tension um uh how do you navigate scarcity or threat? Let’s say bonafide threat. Like if a bear walks in this room and we’re not scared, we’re so full of the spirit, we’re not scared, we actually got to screw loose. Something’s wrong cuz we got to get the bear out of the room, right? You know, and some people or get us out of the room. Or get us out. Yeah. You know, when people come and they say, “I’m really scared of money.” Um I they they feel so guilty on on top of the facts, they feel condemned. And it’s like, okay, well, maybe you have a real reason to be scared. Maybe there actually is a threat in your life. So, so yeah. So, the way I navigate through tension, if I go to scripture, I pull on a verse out of Acts 20. Paul the apostles on his way to Jerusalem. And the quote is not knowing what lays before me. Although I am going to face the Holy Spirit and others are giving me instruction, information, prophetic information that there will be chains and tribulations, but I am not moved. Oh my goodness. Imagine if I’m flying. So I live in California. I flew here to Nashville. If I was getting on the plane and the Holy Spirit said, “Steve, when you get into Taylor’s office, they’re going to beat you up. They’re going to put you in jail and that’s where you’re going to stay for 6 months.” I’d be like, “Thank you, Holy Spirit. Cancel my flight.” Right? Because my paradigm is comfort and safety. And somehow Paul pushed through that. Something what he refers to as being bound in spirit. something. Even though prophetically he was going to get his nose blooded, he said, “No, this is what I’m going to do.” And he actually asks his friends, “Please stop.” You read it. It’s in the book of Acts. He’s just like, “Please, please stop. Don’t don’t say it anymore. You’re breaking my heart because I’m going.” And um that’s the key. You see, when we’re in that tension, and sometimes we face really hard times, and if you’re a business builder, you know it in spades or you know it in multiples, right? It’s like, wow. And you know, I’ve I and we all have. We’ve come home beat up. It must have been like David after a battle. David, King David, just bloody, muddy, beat to heck. Wow. I could see him sitting back in his chair going, “Oh, wow. What a day at the office, right? So, how do you keep going? Out of willpower? Uh-uh. Willpower wears out. That’s, you know, out of out of positive confession. No. Cuz that’s there’s no substance to that if it’s centered in yourself. You’ve got to be pulled by something greater than yourself. And the pull begins with identity. You have to answer, who am I? And the answers. And this opens up more conversation, but I’ll I’ll stop there and just say first is identity. Second is purpose. You know, Simon Synynics says, you begin with why. No, I mean, he’s a smart, beautiful man. But why? If why is the top of your food chain, it will push identity and pinch it right there. And identity pinches are devastating. So, you have to begin with who am I? That’s adoption. This is the basics of the gospel is is adoption. You only have two choices at identity. You either belong or you don’t. You’re either adopted or you’re not. So identity is first and then comes purpose and then which answers why. Then comes vision. In this case, Paul seeing himself in Jerusalem talking to Caesar. That’s how you build vision. Not from the bottom up, but from the top down. Then you build your strategies and that’s very broad and we have you know health strategies we have business stat strategies we have generational strategies you have all the realms that we work in and then behind that you have all the myriad tactical decisions we have to make every single day constantly but if you build from the back see the nature of the back is urgent and the nature of the front is importance if you build from the back urgency will push your rope and you will kink and it will hurt. And uh so to that question, how do you navigate tension is simply the principle of something greater? You’re pulled not pushed. Understand who, why, what, how, and then the yes no answers to the the tough tactical questions we all have to that is beautiful. The rope analogy is money. Very good. No pun intended. I actually brought my rope. I I teach it with a a physical rope. I have it in my bag. I’ll get it in a minute. Nice. It What came what came to mind is there’s a um I forget his name. He’s an ultramarathon runner. And he was sharing I believe that he was sharing this with Tim Tim Ferrris. Okay. Um and he and Tim was asking him like what do you do at like mile 115 120? These guys will run just like nuts. There’s a crazy book called Born to Run and uh this book is fascinating. I’m trying to learn how to run. I’m not very good at it yet, but um these people will run hundreds of miles without stopping. And this ultra marathon runner said, “When I hit the end of like what I’m able to do, I repeat this over and over.” Talking about David Gogggins, “Tonight I will be in my bed.” Oh, how fun. Not David Gogggins. That’s a different one. Oh, I thought that’s what he said. Interesting. No, I don’t. Yeah, it he didn’t originate it. It was somebody different. Some European guy, I think. And that was it. That’s a simple thing. Tonight I will be in my bed. It may hurt right now, but tonight I will be in in my bed. And that’s the same thing you’re talking about. It’s the Yeah. It it it’s the future state that kind of pulls you through the current state. And you look at Paul, it’s a fascinating story because not only did he have the vision of like, I’ll be in front of Caesar talking, but he also in Colossians 3, he talks about like keeping your your mind on the kingdom. So, he had this longterm macro. Yeah. Not tonight, I will be in my bed, but like at some point I will be in heaven. Oh, it’s better to die. You know, it’s better to die it’ll be with Christ, but for you. He was kind of like whatever. Paul, you are a beast. Are you trying to find this quote? Courtney DeWalter. Who? Courtney Dewalter. Oh, nice. Is he European? M. It doesn’t sound like a European name, but I don’t know. Oh, but isn’t that cool? That’s like a cool like cool even. I’m trying. That’s okay, Jake. So, sorry. That’s okay. You’re coming. Dr. Seuss. I mean, yeah, that might be it. I think it might have been in uh the places you’ll go. Yeah, there have been that book’s crazy. Oh, the places you’ll go. Have you read this book? Uh, you read it and then I published social media content of it. So, yes, I heard it from you. So, for the audience, sorry, you’re gonna have to bear with us because we’re we’re just we have a a lot of shared interests, but Oh, the places you’ll go. My daughter Kate got it for um a Christmas present one time. And so, this is three three years ago. She’s like, “Let’s read a book.” So, I pick it up and I’m halfway through it and I start crying and she’s like pokes me in the face. She’s like, “Read.” I was like, “I’m having a moment.” Uh it’s so good. But that’s amazing. been a lot of times that I’ve been trudging through it and I’ve used that like tonight I’m going to be asleep. I’m going to be okay. And next year I won’t remember. Yeah. Uh a couple weeks ago I was going through really something that that I’m just ready for it to be done. And I drove to downtown Nashville to meet somebody for dinner and I couldn’t remember Nashville. It was a really odd oh wow scenario for me. And the Lord will do this stuff with me all the time. I feel like I’m a guinea pig sometimes. But I ask him to I’ll ask him I’ll pray these prayers. I’m like mess with my brain, you know, like I want the mind of Christ, which is different than my mind. So So you have permission because I trust you to change my neurochemistry and to change my synapses. And so and I’ve I’ve never had it backfire on me, but it’s been very uncomfortable sometimes in the moment. So I’m downtown Nashville. I’m supposed to walk in and I call my wife. It’s like, “When’s the last time that we were in Nashville?” She was like 5 months ago. We stayed and we I was like, she’s like, “You don’t remember that?” I said, “No, I actually like had to put it into maps. I couldn’t remember where I was where I was going.” And and I was like, “All right, Holy Spirit, what’s going on? What are you doing?” And he said, “The season that you’re asking to end will be just like this in a couple years.” Oh my gosh. And he said, “Isa,” he said, Isaiah 43:18, “Forget the former days.” And I was like, got it. I I love that image because when we were talking earlier about familiarity and the poverty cycle, when you break the cycle, you move into a space where you have no tools and it’s like the open water for a sailor. It’s like imagine those first sailors like you in Nashville. You’re it’s like wow, how deep is this? What is under there? And what do I do? Where are we going? And sometimes there’s no wind. Sometimes there’s gusts. I mean, the waves are I mean, it’s there’s no context. And and this is where we’re called. I think that’s where we’re going to go, you know, is God is calling us to new places. And I mean, the adventure level of life is alone sweetness. I mean, it’s just excitement and it’s sweet and scary. Yeah. And there’s risk. Yeah. But that’s, you know, the living in the tension is we got to get used to the unfamiliar. Yep. I love your image of I’ve been here. Have I? What a strange experience. Such a strange experience. Yeah. And that is uh that same type of experience in different areas. Has happened four or five times in the past two years. And every time I’ll try to figure it out and I’ll just be like, “What games are you playing?” Yeah. What’s happening? What lesson is happening right now? Yeah. Teach me. because my brain’s responding in a way that’s abnormal. Um, and so I want to get it. I wonder if it’s like even like new neural pathways going on like Yeah. This is how you’re going to navigate. Yeah. Now, yeah. Well, it’s reprinting. It’s this reprinting thing. I was saying people got to ask for God to give them new experiences. And uh the con when you when you want to reloop something you have kind of cognitive behavioral therapy mode will will go consistency on one side and then intensity is on the other. So if you want to change a a map, one of the best ways that you can change a loop is speaking out loud a different version of it because the consistency will kind of faith comes by hearing. So it it’s tracked a different Mh. But then every once in a while, God will give you such an intense moment that will compress, you know, a thousand times Wow. into a I tell people at business conferences all over the place. I’m like there’s no greater somatic experience than the presence of God. Mhm. Can’t ever you can’t beat it. It’s like you you can try you can run a marathon, you can cold plunge, but when God shows up, your body will respond in a way that’s infinitely higher than that. Mh. And so sometimes we just have to trust God enough to give him permission. I I can’t help but think as you’re sharing, I’m thinking before the fall that might have been normal for Adam. Yes. And what you might be bumping into is a restoration of elements, fractions of it perhaps, but nonetheless, I mean, what a hope that we could with God all things are possible. So we could maybe reawaken the I mean the the possibilities here are pretty staggering. Oh yeah. With God. Yeah. Well, what does that mean? And you know, we’re all in that journey. We all have different little pathways, but and experiences to go through, but that’s as you’re talking, I’m like, “Wow, you might be bumping into those mysteries of God’s secrets and and I’ve in my own way I’ I’ve bumped into those and when they happen, there are so alien. It’s like, I did not think that one up.” Yeah. What? And oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh and all the rooms that open after that think of I mean for you know your audience that are creatives and builders and innovators that is is a prosperous soul. That’s that’s wealth. Yeah, that’s wealth. Yeah, man. That’s cool. That’s cool. Wait, how do you say it? Jan Vajda. That’s a European name. He said, here’s the exact quote. I am not in any sort of danger and tonight I will be in my bed. That’s even better. Oh, that’s even better. That’s awesome. Okay, let’s move on. Um because we’re about to have a praise break if we keep going on this. Uh and Jake wants us to finish the episode. Biblical history. I didn’t mean end it. No, this that’s okay. We got time. Um you have you talked about this in the book a little bit. Um I don’t know if you recommended this this book uh in yours. There’s a book by um a rabbi named Thou Shalt Prosper. Have you heard of this book? Mhm. Um, and you have some your your theology on this and the way that you view it is very interesting and it comes through the idea of in Old Testament times it was not just a recommendation. It was like you will know that you are my people because you’ll be prosperous. Um, can we confirm can we fix the modern weird theology that people think poverty means you’re closer to God and like can we just eliminate that? Well, it’s pretty deep in America because of the pilgrims, because of our beginnings. You know, they they uh venerated poverty because it was associated with humility. And so, so it’s it’s in the fabric of America. It’s it’s more than America, but yeah, it’s going to be a tough one to move. And that’s one of the reasons um I think my ministry I found it to be a quite heavy lift because the it’s so generationally embedded the association of poverty to godliness. Yeah. But but thou shalt prosper is an interesting book. I I discovered Rabbi Lapen after I wrote this book and I met him and he’s an amazing character. He’s an amazing individual. And in the book, Thou Shalt Prosper is the Jewish perspective or the rabbitical perspective of the Ten Commandments, how they relate to money, which as a Gentile, as a you know, you know, individual that’s not I I admire and respect and study. I I’m fascinated with Jewish ideas, with rabbitical lessons, with the history of the Hebrew nation. I just love it. And but I’m an outsider to that. And um I never imagined that the Ten Commandments had a bridge to finances. I I it just never occurred to me. But if if your readers or if your listeners are curious, that’s where I would go. And I do recommend his book now. But to uh you know historically to the subject of how do we defeat that in modern Christianity let’s say in America and globally. I think we need to go back and understand the first words recorded from God to man. Genesis 1, I think it’s verse 28 or somewhere in that neighborhood. Be fruitful and multiply. literally the first word spoken. And you know when God speaks, he engineers. He doesn’t say, “Let there be light.” And he looks for a custodian to go turn a switch. You know, he when he speaks, it embeds it. It creates it. And I think when when God at creation said, “Be fruitful and multiply,” he wasn’t giving us a task list. He was embedding in us fruitfulness and multiplication. It’s in us. And to contradict that and resist that as Christians, and this is where I grew up, is ambition evil. Rich people evil. Yeah. Um, you know, vision and goals, selfish and evil, gross. Don’t don’t have any. Which which is as I’ve healed, it’s like that what a tragic mindset to carry. What are we bunch of power powerless, you know? Cheeto eaters on a couch. We just lay around and get fat and call that the abundant Christian life. No, you know, we we are engineered to grow and make stuff happen. And and so when you know the subject comes up of ambition or what does a Christian do about money? Should they be rich? Um I think I think a Christian I have to get into some definitions. I think a Christian should be wealthy, but rich and wealthy are different measurements. They’re just they’re not evil, good or bad. I’m just saying, no, they’re different. And and I think yes, we should be wealthy. I do think we should be wealthy. Now, if your narrow perspective is that means a bank account, okay, well, you’ve got half of the formula or some fraction of the formula, but so it’s not evil to have money. You know, God never punished people by giving them wealth. He didn’t say, “Solomon, you bad boy. Here’s a bunch of money. You’re the richest man in the world now. What do you think of that?” You know, take that. You know, Job, wow, here, you know, I’m going to give you back twice of everything you’ve lost because I’m mad at you. You know, so the the goofiness of associating punishment with money is is really, I think, rooted in a philosophy that has its virtues that that kind of Quaker pilgrim foundational thing. There’s some beautiful virtues in it, but it was I think it grew into something distorted. So, so I do think um you know as I’ve healed out of poverty cuz my my fundamental wound spiritual wound was orphan an orphan mindset and I’m not an orphan but I adopted that idea. I just embraced that I was I didn’t belong and so that followed me from childhood like most of us learn our biggest lessons at child early in our lives. And so for me to outgrow that and heal that is a sovereign act of it’s a miracle in my life is absolutely Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. And on the other side of that I realize oh I’m tired of being afraid and timid. I I I you know I used to be afraid to say my opinion or speak. And then now it’s like I don’t have to be heard, but I have my opinion. I get to have my opinion. I belong. I have a voice. And I I’m done being passive. I’m done hiding. Those are fingerprints of poverty. I Oh, that I that’s I’ve got to be done with that. You know the definition of humility is yes you know when God speaks and let’s say God gives us an assignment like he did you Taylor and you know here Taylor I want you to do this thing you know humility doesn’t say oh no no I would never do that you don’t say that to the creator of the world you know no I I can’t do that that’s that’s ridiculous no humility says yes sir or yes And how am I going to do that? And and so acting out our design is wealth. It is. I mean, the wealth might be humble as far as riches, you know, it might be humble. I I’ve seen some of the wealthiest people I ever met were in um I was in a country in Africa. I won’t say where, but it was a beautiful country and I absolutely loved it. And we were there teaching some business people and my goodness, we came so naive western Christian missionaries. Oh Jesus help us. We we’re there going to teach them how to you know how to prosper and how to be wealthy and and I thought and I think I did contributed things. But I’ll tell you what I found is we brought third grade material and they were in the mast’s program. who’s like, “Oh, I guess I better step up.” And there were some wealthy, wealthy people there. And I’m not talking riches. I mean, they were just happy. They were living on dirt floors and living full lives. It’s it’s it was an interesting experience for me. It goes back to the the prevalence concept change. Help me because someone over here, they’ve run out of problems. M. So now they’re trying to find them because they’re wired to solve problems. What happens when somebody looks at you the wrong way on a train and your brain and amydala responds as if you were starving to death? Prevalence induced concept change. That’s what that’s what’s happening. Wow. Versus somebody and this is I was going to say this earlier, but it’s better to say it now. You know, we do a lot of work with people on on mental architecture and CBT and you get these you were talking about supplanting beliefs earlier and so in from a psychological sense you really only have two things you can do with a belief. You can replace it which is the supplanting. Yeah. Yeah. Or you can reappraise it. Okay. And this is what you see in James when he’s saying when you when you go through suffering here’s what it means. Mhm. It’s not what you think it means. Reappraise what it means to you. Yeah. And consider it all joy. Consider all joy making you perfect. Yeah. And it’s it’s a reappraisal device. But over there what you what you see with different types of people is the the problems that they have are legitimate problems and therefore there’s a sense of gratitude that matches what their brain is trying to find. And over here we’ve like we’ve just become so obsessed with creating new problems. Yeah. We we we invent offenses. We create make them up. Yeah. You know. Um Wow. Any questions on this? You want to keep going? Let’s keep going. Are you good? Yeah, I’m good. Good to go. Can we bump this up to like a nine out of 10? Yeah, we’re moving. All right, we’re moving. All right. Can we one of the best things that ever happened to me while reading this book and uh there’s a lot about this book that that changed how I view money and changed how I view God. Thank you. I mean uh it was it was one of probably three books that changed my life when I was about to lose everything and didn’t know. So, but the Holy Spirit knew I needed to read it right before Oh my gosh, I want to hear that story. Yeah, I’ll tell you at lunch. Okay. But something that stuck with me more than anything else, and it has been a a kind of a thing that I’ll think about a couple times a year, is the story you told when you discovered toil and what toil actually means. Ouch. Um, do you remember this story well enough to Yeah. Oh, painful, painful time. Yeah. Okay. This is where I want to like coast here for a second because I just as much context just to get you up to speed. Yeah. I had outrun a lot of my problems through toil. Toil worked for me. That’s the danger. Um the grind, the toiling, the the stress, the anxiety. It made me a lot of money. And and then I was I was sort of put into a position where it didn’t work anymore. Um and when I was trying to rebuild, guess what? I was trying to rebuild with the same thing that I and we get caught in this loop of of toiling for ourselves. Mhm. So, I’d love for you to share that story and wow, what God taught you through that. Well, that’s a big one. Um, and you know, I tend to talk too much, so I’ll uh No, you’re good. I’ll hit some highlights and then you you tell me where you want to go deeper. How’s that? Okay, cool. I um I was in a prosperous season like you’re describing like um in in my professional career. I was um succeeding financially, emotionally, relationally with my wife, my children um as a as a believer. The church was, you know, experiencing signs and wonders and things that were amazing and I was part of that. So all this prosperity, I guess I’ll use that word, around me, but I was um so dead inside, which this didn’t come suddenly. This was a through toil I was I was working just in context in those days I was working I had my own business as a tax practice and um when you introduced me you said boutique I don’t know if that’s a good word but I loved it because what happened is I I was on staff at Bethel working for these amazing men and women and we were seeing the favor of God apparently on us that’s our assessment and still is mine. God was just blessing us and you know in spite of our best efforts it was working you know to be honest and so the the the organization was growing oh my gosh 20% not exaggerating 20% a year for every year just year out and year on year what year was this around what time was this yeah the growth probably started around 98 okay 99 and um you know we grew around 4,000 % some over the time I was there it was and and so I was the CFO so I’m in charge of engineering systems ahead of this train while the train’s moving I’m trying to load boxes on box cars while the train’s in motion and um it was it was really fun and stressful baby holy moly so that’s what my 40 to 60 hour week was and then I also had a income tax practice. And so I was doing pastors and then when pastors found out I was associated with this move of God, I started collecting more pastors. I didn’t I never advertised. They just, hey, somebody said you can you help me. And then so I had clients all over the country coming to me and saying, can you do my work? And I’m like like a dork. I’m like, yeah, yeah, I’ll do your work. That’s how I prosper, right? That’s how we if an accountant has a scaled income um engine and the way you make more money as an accountant is you wedge one more account, one more tax return in between, right? So it just gets like a file folder is fatter and fatter and fatter. So I just kept slipping them in and if I worked really hard and so now imagine me and my home around a 60 plus hour week job Friday all evenings and Saturday day are my heyday. That’s what I I sit in my office and I as soon as I can get out of bed, I’m grinding tax returns for somebody in Minnesota, you know, and um and I do that until I can’t stay awake and I fall asleep and on Sunday morning, guess what? Revival. So, I’m at church. And so, I had 7-day weeks going and this went for probably about seven years. Wow. So, you know, I was I grew up as a farmer. We don’t know how to work. And I uh you know, I’m not a big man, but I can I can work. And so I worked. And God, I worked. And I I probably had gusts to 100 hours a week, but probably mostly I was probably in the 70 to 80 hour weeks. And I did that for years, 7 days a week. It’s just killing me. And what what happened is my I I started shutting down in little ways. Even though this miracle environment really it was so we saw some incredible things and um that I can’t explain. They were just it was miraculous and and yet it wasn’t affecting me like it didn’t inspire me. People would prophesy to me. I got to where so I have a lovehate relationship with prophets now because you know shotgun prophecy I want to just shut up. Just take your shotgun and go somewhere else. You know I mean I don’t I love prophecy but you just need to take that. Don’t you shooting around the room. Just don’t shoot me with that thing. Now, if you want to come and let’s talk and prophesy to me, that’s different. But you don’t just walk in rooms blasting holes. And so what it what that’s not healthy, but I’m just saying that’s where I was. I was like, we had so many prophetic words. Like I mean they’re in binders, hundreds of prophetic words to where I was like, if you give me one more prophetic word, I’m the guy carrying the boxes on the train. you need to shut up and just help us get the ones we have done. You know what I’m saying? I was ready to punch people. I was getting I was in a bad space. I was going to my friends, my pastors, counselors. I was coaches. I was saying, “What do I do? I’m getting advice like I remember one, you’re just so burned out. You need to take take a take a week off. This is an actual friend of mine. Take a week off.” I was like, “Oh, is that it? I’m burned out.” Because I couldn’t feel anything anymore. And I was really scared. My wife would insult me. I tell this from the stage, so this isn’t She would say something that would hurt. You know how that works with between lovers, you know, you can really hurt each other. Mhm. And uh and I didn’t feel it. It was just like, “Yeah, that doesn’t actually hurt me because I I’m shut down inside.” And we she was as scared as I was like, “So, what’s wrong with my man?” But um this um this guy told me, “You need to take time off.” Which was hilarious because that just gave me more time to get more tax returns done, right? Because I lived in this heat, right? So I I had a good tax season that year. But anyway, um I I am by myself, so I can’t find people that will actually speak to the problem. Now, I think they were there. I just I either I didn’t know how to articulate it or they weren’t aware of this principle. I don’t know this, but I know I was alone in chapel. I felt very alone, very scared, and very aware that I’m in trouble. I this is not a bluff. I I’m going to be I mean I was on medication at this point. I I was I was trying everything I could and the medication made me crazy as a as a March hair. I was just like, I got to get off this stuff. So, I was just in a hell of a condition, if I could say that. I I was and the Holy Spirit. So, I have a dream and this is in the book, but I I wake up in the night and I hear this word evil one. Evil one. Evil one over and over. Evil one. Uh, go back to sleep. I cannot sleep. It’s like 2:00 in the morning. I get up. I I go into my little study, my office where all my taxes are. It’s like radiation in there with all the stuff. And I open up my concordance cuz I’m curious where is evil one. And it turns out it is used in the New Testament only. This evil one phrase. And it the root word or the actual word is pono. P O neo. I think it is pono. I haven’t looked this up in years, but uh and it the root of that so the word itself is evil, but the root is toil. Now, I discovered this at like 2:30 in the morning. I mean, I’m I’m so bone tired and I’m in a bad space and I didn’t lose my Christianity or my marriage, but I was it was it was hectic. And I I get this download of evil one and I find it’s in like I think it was like nine or 10 scriptures and I put them in my book. I listed them all. Evil one like take the shield of faith uh to uh defend yourself from the fiery darts of the evil one. That’s the word pono. Okay. Evil one, the fiery darts. I’m like, “Oh yeah, this must be from God.” So I go to I go to bed. I make some notes. I go to sleep. It’s like probably like 4 in the morning. I sleep until probably 7. I get up and I go to my uh every day I would start in this little prayer place and I was just praying and I was like, “My God, what do I do? The evil one is in my life somehow. I don’t know what to do and I am Lord, I need a solution.” And I said, “God, you’ve got to you got to save me. I I don’t know what to do. Nobody is helping me.” And I literally hear now usually I don’t hear audibly. I heard audibly on this one. He said, Holy Spirit said, “Keep my Sabbath.” That’s all he said. I hear it. And I’m like, “Keep my Sabbath. I I don’t even know what Sabbath is. What in the world do I do with that? Keep my Sabbath.” So, I read and, you know, it shows up in Hebrews. It shows up in, you know, Old Testament, of course, and all these things. And I’m like, what in the heck am I going to do? I’m thinking, God, tell me I can sell my business or tell me I can quit my job and just do one or the other. You know, something I feel trapped by blessing is what’s going on. And it’s killing me. And his answer is keep my Sabbath. Not cut down or reduce. Not take time off. You’re burned out. It was no, keep my Sabbath. And I realized, now this is what I call first Steven chapter 1. So I’m getting down to my interpretation now. I think people are engineered for high performance like like Ferrari performance. Like we are we are not built to be sloppy and lazy. We are built to kick kick it to get it on, right? We just are. But like those highly tuned engines, I used to be a mechanic for a period of my life. Those alloy engines burn hot and long and high RPMs just screaming inside. If you can imagine the speed of pistons and everything, they’re they are on. But if you don’t have oil in there, you’re gonna have a block of aluminum in about 10 minutes, five minutes, one minute. Okay? So, we can we can perform. And this would be when I talk and work with business people, leaders. I’m like, don’t shut down. Don’t back up. Don’t turn down the volume. No, you you can get it on, but bro, sister, whatever’s going on, you better have oil in your engine. And the way you get oil is you honor the design God made. God designed us to take time. Now, I’m not going to say, you know, the the Levitical law of 24 hours, sunset to sunset and all that detail. The principle is there. We are designed to replace our oil. We got to have oil. And the way the oil gets there is something that no one more beautifully than the Jews or the Jewish philosophers have described around Sabbath. And the book I would point curious readers to is a tome, but it’s called the Sabbath by Abraham. I think it’s Joshua Abraham Hessel. I might have his name might be Abraham Joshua Hesshel I can’t remember it’s a fabulous famous rabbi who’s now deceased but he wrote many books one is called the Sabbath and I read that to understand what do the pros think about Sabbath they have actually studied as a culture for hundreds of years for generations what do they say he says this is is from a memory so my quote is going to be a little loose here but it’s in book. He says, “Sabbath is the practice of timeless heaven wedged into a timeless a timefilled or a timebound earth. We elbow aside, this is me now edit editorializing, we elbow aside the demands of the world, our business, our family, our ambition or whatever. We elbow it aside and it this is done by faith because it’s not logical. You you wedge aside the pressures and you rest body, soul, and spirit. It is really hard. Really hard. And I still to this day don’t think I really understand it, but I practice it. I have a Sabbath rhythm. I don’t, you know, get all legalistic, but I I do keep a Sabbath rhythm. And I learned um I learned about what Sabbath means. And to my surprise, God didn’t take things away. He didn’t use the minus sign, he used the plus sign. And he and he encouraged me. I mentioned this earlier in our interview. It’s like I am tired of being fragile and timid. I think I said timid. I will add to that idea. Fragile. We’re not fragile. We We are ferocious. And we don’t have to be afraid and cautious, but we do have to obey the design God built for us so that we can perform like those alloy engines for hundreds of hours at staggering RPMs and heat levels with tiny tolerances. Don’t I’m I don’t don’t worry about your tolerances. I would say this to business people. Don’t don’t worry about all these little margins and just make sure you’re you’re changing the oil. Make sure you got oil in that engine. Yeah. And then and then get it on, man. Let’s go. We’ve got so much to do and this is our time and I I’m I’m done waiting, man. You know, let’s go. Let’s draw some blood. So, you were a mechanic? Yeah. Honda motorcycles. Yeah. So, um you understand throughput. Mhm. So, that’s what God was doing is fixing your throughput. Yeah, is a master at throughput, which throughput is just your output divided by time. So that’s the Sabbath is how you fix throughput. I’ll play with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. Um, do you have any questions about this? I’m going to read a section from this story in the book. I just want to just encapsulate something that just connected the dots for me. is that you said you said you felt trapped by your own blessing and you just kind of moved on like it was a whatever statement and then I just got hit by that freight train and then had to catch up for the rest of it. But it’s like I have never considered that. I have never considered that you could be trapped by the blessing that God’s giving you. And like how necessary is it for us to have people in our own life like you or Taylor like Taylor, you do this with me. like how many things could I say yes to right now that I don’t and because you’re you’ve already seen that you’re like yes that’s a blessing that you have that doesn’t mean you should say yes to everything because then that blessing will literally trap you and it will enslave you and then that gift is then being corrupted and it never has the chance to do what it’s supposed to do and run at the level that it’s supposed to. Mhm. And when you’re really careful about what you say yes to, what you say no to, and you have what Proverbs talks about is there’s wisdom and a multitude of counsel, you end up being prevented from getting into a place of being trapped by your own blessing. And it’s just such a beautiful principle I’ve never considered. When you have that counsel, you know, it gives you clarity to know what you’re supposed to be focused on so that you know exactly what you’re supposed to go hard on. Yeah. and then take your Sabbath and when you’re on your Sabbath, you know exactly what you’re getting ready for to go hard on again. That’s beautifully said. Yeah, I think that’s really well. So helpful. Yeah. Great clarity. This happens all the time around business owners. They all want more. Everyone wants more. Well, I think it is in our DNA that Genesis 128. It’s literally don’t resist that. That’s it’s in us. Yeah. It’s in our neurotransmitters. It’s in like how everything works. Yeah, but sometimes I can tell somebody wants to know how to build more and I’m like, man, if you got that, it would kill you. And I don’t know another way to say it. Yeah. Um, there’s a reason Joseph probably would not have been able to do his job if he wasn’t stuck for 10 years. Wow. Building capacity, capacity for faith, capacity for obedience. Like, so it’s like we all want God to come in and change our our circumstances and we don’t want him to change our character. Yeah, that’s a bad combination. You got God being like, I’ll change your character, then you will change the circumstances to match my blueprint. Yeah. And we want, no, just fix the circumstances. And character change requires weight. Yeah, man. Uh, and you have to sit in it sometimes, you know. Can I read a section from that story in the book? Go for it. Um because I was not reading it quite at 2:30 in the morning, but it was late at night and it changed such a par like had such a paradigm altering effect for me. Wow. That I couldn’t really think well. So, you know, a paradigm is hitting you when you’re like none of my rules work. Uh I have to rethink everything. And um so I’m going to just if I’m going to read a section from the book. You had a dream. I’m going to read the dream if that’s okay. Mhm. So, you’re sitting in your office typing at a computer. Oh, I forgot about this. Cradling a telephone between your shoulder and your chin. Yeah. And you’re simultaneously conversing with someone on the phone and typing on a spreadsheet. Another person comes in the door with the question. You turn, not a response. You’re not losing place with anything. You’re multitasking. And you sit outside yourself watching this happen. And beside you was father. Father God who was there. And you thought he was there to watch your dis display of efficiency. Yeah. So you turn out of a body, you’re watching yourself work. You turn to the to the Lord and you say, “I’m doing well then.” And the Lord says, “This was not for me.” Yeah. And this is when I read that and I was like, “Oh no, my life’s about to mine, too, bro. Change.” You lurched awake. That’s what woke me up. Yeah. That’s what woke you up. And you heard evil one. Evil one, evil one. I’m just going to give people the the verses because you put it so beautifully in your book. You you took every word every script scripture where this word showed up and you replaced the word evil one with toil. Yeah. And so I’m just going to read this because this is insane. When you when you read it and you realize what it’s talking about, it changes your whole life. So Matthew 13 um 19, this is the one whom seed was sown beside the road and the field is the world. Well, then as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom, and the tears are the sons of toil. Changes the meaning of that verse a little bit. Verse 38, I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but to keep them from toil. Changes the meaning of that verse. John 17, in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of toil. But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from toil. Second Thessalonians, I’m writing to you fathers because you know him who has been from the beginning. I’m writing to you because you have overcome toil. I just read this and I was like my whole life is evil basically. Not not in a guilt shame. Yeah. Yeah. But if this is what it’s talking about revelation like wait it tweaked me. It was like oh baby like a chiropractic adjustment where you can’t breathe at first. Yeah. And I was I I just think I had a this revelation from you around all of this that I have acred for myself. Mhm. Maybe God wasn’t in it the way I thought he was. Mhm. Is he said this is not for me. This is my theology formed around this and people have heard me say this like the people can say look the hand of God is on my life. Look at the blessing. Look at the prosperity. And God had nothing to do with it. That’s actually not what God designed. So we have to be so careful that when we’re we’re processing through an episode like this, it has to change us. We have to think differently because of it. And that’s the the metamorphosis, the metaninoia, the repentance that creates that is I learned something new and therefore I think something different. Jesus was less interested in even just you’re you talk about healing and he was interested is you’re healed now what are you changed? Did your mind change? Did you did you change the way you think about what you’re building? And you get this glimpse of like Mary and Martha at the end of the day. And I I don’t want to be Martha anymore. Like I don’t want to work for God. Yeah. I just want to be with God. So I want to if I can just add. So there’s an So there’s an interesting human response that I a a a conclusion I reach that I now see as a trap. And that is when that chiropractic adjustment happened. It happened to me in a dead sleep. and then wakes me up. I mean, I sit up in bed. I’ve had a few of those and it was like, oh my gosh. Um, we have a tendency to pendulum from, well, if that’s not from him, then all of it must be evil or garbage. And and we pendulum. I believe the pendulum is an enemy strategy in our lives. and and it comes down to a play on words. This is the way I process. This is first Steven chapter 2 here. Um the enemy loves to exploit opposites but the gospel is not the opposite. It’s an alternative. It’s a different thing altogether. So we talked early about mammon and poverty. I believe they’re opposites, like evil twins, like reversals in a mirror, and one is lack and another is excess, right? So, one hides you, the other promotes you. So, they they have these characteristics and they seem opposite, but I believe that they’re twins. And and I think when and I I’m pointing at myself here. When I left poverty, my nature or my maybe it’s just my human logic pendulum. I need to be the opposite of poverty and I moved away. Okay. So if you could picture a tight rope and one end is poverty and all that it implies, lack, scarcity, hiddenness, invisibility, all the nasties. The other end is its opposite and I’ll call it mammon or greed. Um, the actual definition is, as I understand it, is deifying money or wealth personified. So, it’s got a pretty creepy element to it that’s beyond greed. Greed is a kind of a comfortable word we can use in our English modern language, but really it’s a deification of wealth. So um so when we pendulum we walk away from this thing we recognize and this is the chiropractic moment. We’re like ah and what do we do? We turn our back on it and we walk the opposite way as best we know. We we use it to navigate. It’s like a compass for us. And evil becomes a compass if we use opposites. Does that make sense? because I center my back to it and I’m going to walk away from it. But it has by implication oriented me in a direction. Mhm. And I walked the tight rope to the other side as I got there. And this is in the front of the book. This is the basis of that kind of metaphor that’s in the front of the book of sailing. And I was sailing and that was the familiar spirit. difficulty getting away from it. But once I did, I got out to where I wasn’t familiar. And I could see in the distance where I was headed, and that was Mammon, the opposite. And the Holy Spirit did give me a word right there. He said, “You’re not going to go there.” And I’m like, “Oh, so I must have to balance between two evils.” This is my logic brain. Yeah. I have to find out where is the proper position on this tight rope for Christians, for this Christian. Is it in the middle? this kind of sucks here. Can I be just one step closer to the mammon because there’s more stuff over there, right? So, you you get into, you know, churches argue and debate and navigate where is the proper position on this tight rope between two evils. And the truth is there is no right place between two evils. That’s not this that’s the trap. And the devil, we talked earlier, you know, he doesn’t care what side of the horse we fall on. He doesn’t care where we stand as long as we’re on the tight rope. And the gospel is an alternative. So this is like the victim and villain and the hero is the third character. The hero isn’t the opposite of the victim. The victim is the opposite of the villain. They’re magnetized to each other. That’s why you never find a victim without a villain. That’s deep. Yeah. Where are they? Well, I’m a victim. Where’s your villain? You will magnetize to them because they’re opposites. They need each other. Yeah. Like magnets. Yeah. So the hero is a different thing altogether. And that’s why they can step in and rescue the victim. Victims need rescue. They do. They need help. That’s that poverty convergence that we talked about, the poverty trap. They need they need someone to pull them off. But what you do is you got to step off the tight rope. The tight rope’s only like 12 in high. We got to get off and walk in a new direction. And that is really alien if you’ve never been out there. And that we talked about, too. The unfamiliar deep water. Like what’s out here? And guess what you need out there? A leader. And that is the pull system. And in my metaphor, it was the open water. And where does it go? Well, out there, we need to be spiritled. That’s that’s a spirit-ledd life. And and I think I think this idea is is powerful in the context of what we’re talking because if you abandon if you think that this isn’t from me and you abandon wealth entirely as a concept, we are still on the tight rope. In fact, we’ve just moved in that case away from let’s say mammon toward poverty and we’re back to the kind of the the wealth association with poverty and lack, you know. So, we don’t want to get rid of we we we want to leave the tightroppe but we want to when we follow Jesus what happens when we actually do and this is built around identity. What we actually do out there is we learn about capacity. And God does bring increase. He does add. He’s he’s a multiplier and an adder. And um he’s not afraid to reduce. That’s for sure. God isn’t afraid of that. But I do think to your general question, you know, should we, you know, should be we you didn’t exactly word it this way. A lot of people, a lot of Christians struggle. Should we be wealthy? And um I solve it with first the Genesis 128. Yeah, we’re engineered to prosper. And I redefine rich and wealth. I redefine those. You know, riches are just the mathematical balance sheet. You know, assets minus debt. That’s and and poor is just the lack or less of that. But wealth and poverty are different. They’re living in here in this chest of ours and in our mindsets. And that’s now we’re back to the circles and and uh what do we do about this? We get off the tight rope entirely and we become that third character in every great novel. Every great story there’s three. The hero, the victim, and the villain. And we are going to figure out what role we’re going to play. In fact, if I can just push one more moment, I think that the victim, villain, and hero are associated with purpose. Those are our three choices at purpose. Remember my purpose train? My five. So identity, there’s two choices. Adoption or orphanism. We either belong or we don’t. At next level down purpose, there’s three choices. You’re the you play out the victim, the villain, or the hero. And if you have a pull system, your adoption identity will untwist the response that orphan throws into our thinking. Does that make Mhm. And and so that’s why a pull system in Christ uniquely is adoption. So now we belong and that’s where value comes and below that because the principle of something greater pulls the thing behind it. That’s when we answer why are we alive? That’s where the hero emerges. We have roles but it’s the hero that emerges. When you understand your value, how simple it is to have the hero response. You’ve you’ve probably done that in a restaurant. You see somebody steal the tip for the waitress. You know, all these heroes emerge, right? Hey, that doesn’t belong to you. You know, it’s just natural. It’s designed in us. And then from that purpose of hero, that’s where meaning is added. So value comes at identity, meaning comes at purpose, hope comes at the next level, which is vision. And that’s where we build from the top down. What do we see? And then that’s where you get and now we’re back to Paul on his way to Jerusalem bound in spirit. Um not knowing what lays before him, but I am not moved. You know, just heroics at epic levels. And we all have our opportunities to be heroes. Whether we’re raising babies or cutting hair or laying pipe, it doesn’t matter what we’re doing. We can all be heroes because we are engineered like a rope to be pulled by something greater. Yeah. Yeah. Single moms. Heroes. Single moms. I was raised by one. Yeah. Heroes. Yeah. Absolutely. Let me see if I can put what you just said into a uh I’m going to take what you said and use linguistics to answer the question of should Christians be wealthy? This is a great frame. You’re a master of frames by the way. You’re very good. um hero, villain, victim. It’s almost seems like at the victim, villain level, you’re trying to get right answer, wrong answer. And at the next level, you’re wrong question, different question. So the it might not when people are like, should Christians be wealthy? I think a lot of times you could say different question, wrong question. Different question. What what would I replace that question with is learning to ask God, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? Tuning into God’s voice. I I would tune one thing to that. I don’t think that’s wrong. I think that’s brilliant. But I I would say what I find is who are you? And I’ll tell you most people associate their identity with roles, with what they’re doing or how they do it. So my key words are who, why, what, and how. Identity, purpose, vision, strategies, when tactics. I Yeah. Yeah. And I think that when and where play out in there like subsets and the world according to first Steven. Well, you have this verse in the New Testament where it says, “The enemy departed until a more opportune time.” So if the enemy is concerned with time, we have to be concerned with time at the same time. Hey, because it’s I’ve done the right thing at the wrong time, ruined everything. Yeah, timing is a topic. Yeah. Talk about economics. Like timing is Have you done a podcast on timing? No, I don’t think so. Okay, tell me. And we’ll have you come back and we can talk about it. But that you know what you remind me of who who are you is I think it’s 1 Corinthians 3 where beholding we are transformed. M so it’s it’s that is a better question that is the central question is looking who are you and then we are transformed through that I think everyone needs value and we try to so if I had my rope if you can picture my rope and at the top is a knot that says identity and in the middle is vision so it’s identity purpose vision strategies tactics most people have attached their identity to their strategies. Mhm. You see that loop I just created? And when you loop, you’re in a cycle, bro. And that’s scary, painful, and it’s also entrapping. You you can burn decades in that, maybe generations in that in my opinion. Okay. I just one more one more thing. I just thought about the questions you ask change based on where you are on the on the rope. Mhm. So that’s if if you’re at the top, you’re going to ask, “Who am I? Who are you?” As you progress down, you get into you know who God is. You know who you are. You know your identity. You know the purpose. But then you get into the realms where you see David saying, “Should I do this or not?” Yeah. Yeah. Am I going to win? Yeah. It was the point you were making. Which which do I say yes to everything? Yeah. There’s good, better, and best. And we have to say no to the good and better. Mhm. or they fill our arms. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. That’s great. That’s a really good place to land this ship. Anything you want to ask before you roll. Mhm. No, I’m good. Great episode. Thank you for writing this book. This is a hard book to write. You had to live through pain to write it. Sometimes I I can just hold this book and it’s like so weighty cuz you had to lift so many tears to write it. So, thank you for surviving because there are people like me who you had never met until today that read it and a lot of other people are working on my next one. What’s it called? The exaggerated heart. Oh, okay. When’s that going to be done on? Well, I got some delays right now, but it’s coming. Well, if you want to send a pre-release copy for me to review, just, you know, send it to me and I’ll get it. I won’t talk about it. It’ be great. Guys, we love you.